Weight Loss for Runners - the Definitive Guide From Running Lean Podcast Host Patrick McGilvray

Patrick McGilvray: We have something like 60,000 thoughts a day, and I got to tell you probably 90% of them are negative, you know? And so we need to get that stuff out and like, look at it and say like, okay, here, here's the stuff I'm thinking about. What of this is serving me and what of this is keeping me like stuck and keeping me from reaching my goals. And it's pretty obvious once you start to like break it down that way. So that would be something I could, I would recommend, but really it's just like awareness, just awareness of what you're thinking, awareness of what your doing. Kevin Chang: Hello and welcome to the RaceMob podcast this is episode number 67. I'm Kevin entrepreneur technology and fitness nerd. And I'm joined by the head coach of RaceMob and master motivator, the incomparable Bertrand Newson. Patrick is a seasoned athlete, a licensed nutritionist and the host of the popular running lean podcast. He's helped all kinds of individuals lose weight through his one-on-one and group coaching programs. In this episode, we dive into his big keys to weight loss. Including what most athletes get wrong? We do a deep dive into how athletes can become fat adapted and what that does to performance plus, which had about the benefits of intermittent fasting and fasted training. This is a wide range in conversation. So whether you're looking to drop a few pounds, maintain your physique, or you're looking for nutrition tips to boost your race stated performance. This will be a fun episode for you. All of the show notes can be found online at RaceMob dot com slash podcast and without further ado here's our conversation All right. RaceMob audience. We are so excited to welcome marathoner ultra runner, licensed primary sports nutritionist, the founder and owner of running, leading podcasts and the running lean program. Mr. Patrick Mcgilvray. Hey, welcome to the podcast, Patrick. Patrick McGilvray: That was pretty close, Kevin, Kevin Chang: Oh, no, I totally butchered your name, but you know, like we talked about before we've got a great podcast editor and hopefully you'll clean some of this stuff up. so Patrick, go ahead and, and tell us how we should be pronouncing your name. Patrick McGilvray: Thanks. And I'm just messing with you. It's all good. I've been dealing with this for like 54 years now. And it's Patrick McGillvray. And just like it's spelled. So anyway, thanks for having me on. And yeah, I'm a, I'm a sports nutritionist. I'm a, I'm a runner, I'm a marathon runner. I'm an ultra runner. I just love running and running has been like kind of a passion for me and has been part of my life for a long time now. And and so has nutrition been a very important topic for me and something that I'm very passionate about and I love talking about, and you know, I think we can get into that and talk about that today. But yeah, I'm, I'm super stoked to be here and talk with you. Kevin Chang: And I know you. described yourself as the weight loss coach for runners. Why did you get into that particular niche? I know that you were a runner early on and kind of describe why, why you started, you know, digging into sports, nutrition, and helping runners with weight loss. Patrick McGilvray: Yeah. So this is kind of like where I just fell into this in a way, like, I was a coach I've been at Coach for a long time. I was coaching entrepreneurs, you know, helping them with business and things like that. So I've, I've learned like the principles of coaching. Okay. And I've learned the principles of a lot of the stuff I've learned is like life coaching principles and things like that. How do we, how do we change our mindset so that we can get success in life? You know, that's really what life coaching is all about. And I don't, life coaching gets sort of a bad rap. It's like, oh yeah, all that woo stuff or whatever. But for me, it's been like a game changer, you know what I mean? So learning how your brain works and knowing that you can change it and knowing that when you have bad habits, you can change them. Or knowing that when you want to go for something big, like, oh, I want to go run an ultra marathon, that the right mindset will get you there. You know, the wrong mindset will keep you stuck where you are, the right mindset will absolutely help you to reach these amazing goals and stuff. So I'm a fan of the mindset and the coaching piece. And then I've been a runner for a while and you know, was staying pretty lean as a runner until I wasn't, you know, until I started putting on some weights and you know, not, not too bad, but then, you know, over the last few years, you know, 2017, 2018, 2019, I was like, I ballooned up, I gained like 40 pounds and I was like, what the hell is going on here? You know, I decided I was going to figure it out. And so I started doing all this research and that's when I started getting into sports nutrition and really got just like into the rabbit hole of food and nutrition and, and, and weight gain and weight loss. And like what's driving all this stuff. And one of the pivotal moments for me really was reading the obesity code by Jason Fong, Dr. Jason Fong, and in it, he talks about the insulin response, you know, so we eat high carbohydrate diet and our, our blood sugar goes up and insulin goes up in response. And when insulin is high, you know, we're storing body fat, essentially. Okay. When insulin is high, our bodies are in an inflamed state when insulin is high our hunger hormones are off the chart when insulin is high, our satiety hormones are suppressed. So like all these factors are contributing to weight gain. And I was like, huh, I'm going to give this kind of low carb thing, a try. And and I had been like, plant-based vegetarian for like 15 years. And so, yeah, I had this like, sort of like you know, ideology of like, you know, the more plants eat, the better you are, the healthier you are. And it just, it wasn't working for me. I think, you know, the, the carbohydrates were a problem for me. Not everybody has a problem with carbohydrates. A lot of people are like, yeah, it's fine. No big deal. But for some of us, we were carbohydrate intolerant. We just can't handle. That big carbohydrate load. So how does this tie into runners as well? What is the typical runner diet? Right. It's just carbs, right? We're just freaking carb addicts, you know. Pizza and beer donuts before, during and after the runs. Right. Kevin Chang: That's right. That's Right. Patrick McGilvray: And so we eat all these carbs as just in, in general, you know, eating tons of carbohydrates and then, you know, we're carb loading before, you know, these longer runs, right. And then the morning of you gotta get some carbs in, you know, and then during the, the event you gotta like take the gels and the goos and get the carbs in and the sports drink. And then afterwards it's like, you gotta refuel. So I'm going to go eat a bunch of pizza and ice cream and beer and whatever. And so there's this kind of insidious problem, which is: runners can be pretty healthy and seem pretty healthy on the outside, but be pretty unhealthy on the inside. You know, they, they, there's a lot of people who consider themselves ultra runners, but they're, you know, they get diet good diagnosed with prediabetes or type two diabetes. And they're thin on the outside, but fat on the inside, we call them tow fees, right. Thin on, yeah. Sit on the outside fat on these. And so that's kinda where I was, I was fat on the outside too though. And so I was like, we got to fix this problem, you know? So I switched my diet, I lost a bunch of weight. I asked some people like if they wanted to learn about this and people were just like, yes, please tell me what to do because. I have so many people when I talk about this stuff that, that write me messages and comment on posts and things. They're like, you're talking to me. I didn't know what was wrong. All these years. I've been running more and more and more and more I'm training for a marathon and I'm gaining weight. Like what the heck is going on here? You're the first person that's ever really liked told me what was going on. And I'm like, yeah, well, other people are talking about it. Maybe just not, you know, in these, in this exact way or whatever. So that's sort of my ramp up to deciding that I want to help people that are kind of like me. You know, we were talking before we hit record here about me, I'm kind of an average runner. I mean, I do some ultra marathons and marathons and things like that, but I'm just like this average runner guy, you know, middle of the pack. We'll just put it that way. Okay. Kevin Chang: You're being too modest. You're being too modest. Like, like I told you, before we hit the record button, there are pictures of you on the website and. without your shirt on your you're a good looking, good looking man. So I'm being too modest there. Patrick McGilv: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. You're, you're a very smart and very perceptive by the way. But but I'm like this guy I want to be just relatable. Cause I'm just like that guy. I'm the guy that's like the middle of the pack runner that was overweight that had a problem. And I wanted somebody that could, that I could relate to, you know, and, and I follow all the, all the, you know, top ultra runners. I follow all the, the Olympic athletes and the, and the phenomenons, you know, like Zach bitter, you know, Mike McKnight and I follow people like Dean CarnoSyn. And and that's awesome, but what they're doing is, is a little different than what we're doing is we can warriors, you know what I mean? They're on a different level. And so, you know, I wanted to bring it down to like, what can we do as the weekend warriors as like average people or a little above average, let's just say what can we do like to change the tide for ourselves? How can we become healthier, lose the weight, get leaner, get stronger, enjoy running again, and just become like the best version of ourselves. And so that's kind of what I set out to do and that's my jam. And, and so I, you know, I decided like one of the ways I wanted to talk to people was through the podcast. So I started the running lean podcast. And as you guys know, like it's such a great way to, to talk to runners, especially because what do we do? We pop in our headphones and listen to a podcast as we're out on a run. So it's pretty meadow. We can talk about running while we're running. And it's just a great way to, to communicate the message. So I've been having a lot of fun doing that and just sharing this message of like, there is a solution, you know what I mean? So if you, if you're one of those people out there listening, that's like, you know, maybe you've put on some weight and you, you keep running more and more and it's not coming off. There, there is a solution. Bertrand Newson: People want to hear about that solution? Coach pat, I mean, they are tuning in, they are tuned in, and this is the conversation. We are having with our athletes. And if Kevin were to look you know, at the beginning of this year, some of our most popular challenges, popular podcast, and popular town hall, Q and A's all center around nutrition and weight loss and people having a better understanding of food intake and insulin levels and things along those lines. So as you have found a code that is worked, where you have a captive audience, that audience is growing and as you share we're all runners here and, you know, I can speak for myself. You know, coming off of a broken foot, put on a couple of pounds, I'd like to say it was all because of I'm in the gym and lifting more weights, but that's not entirely true. And as I'm back to running now the way to starting to come off, but it's harder to come off and I think it has to do, is it, can it be age and metabolism. Maybe the combination of what I'm eating, you know, staying hydrated, the stress play a role as well. So granted I'm a co-host of this podcast. I'm going to sit back here a little bit and just listen in the audience as well. Patrick McGilvray: Yeah. And I'll tell you that. So I'm just going to lay it out here for you. Like there are five really keys. There's like five habits that you really need to embrace. If you want to get healthy, if you're a runner, you want to lose weight and you want to, you want to get healthy. Number one, I talk about eating real food and this means like eating food that looks like eating food. That's like not processed eating food that, you know, our ancestors have been needing for tens of thousands of years. If it comes in a box or a package, typically that's going to be like, you gotta like really have a discerning eye, read the labels and just be, be cautious because the stuff they're putting in packages they're altering to make hyper palatable. Like the foods they give us and these scientists that are like creating like the bliss point, you know, the, the, the most palatable through the one that lights up our pleasure centers, the most, they do this because they know that that, that the food, it can be addicting and the food can be something we obsess over and food can be something that we, we use as an emotional management tool. And food can be something that, you know, we keep going back to, even though it's not good for us, sugar is a good example, you know I would say like, if there was like three things, I would say just to like take out of your diet today would be sugar, flour. And vegetable oil. Like these things do not need to be in our diet, but what are most packaged foods made of? What are most processed foods made of? Sugar, flour, and vegetable oil. It's like they got all the ingredients in there for, for for their success. They're making lots of money off of this stuff, but it's making us fat. It's making us over overweight is making us sick and it's making us unhealthy, you know? So we, we need to just go back to eating real food. And I suggest people like shop the outside of the supermarket, you know, where the meat and the produce and, and all the good stuff is dairy products and things like that. And stay away from those middle Isles. You know, occasionally you'll find, you know, some things here and there. Hey, you know, I like some LaCroix. I like my flavored seltzer water, you know pretty clean stuff right there, you know, but for the most part, you know, I just eat, I eat food that just looks like food, you know? I stay away from a lot of that, that other stuff. If you just made this one change, I think you would, you would see a massive benefits and change changes hard, very simple but hard to do. It's very hard to do. It's hard to get away from the sugar and the carbs and all this hyper palatable food, because it's so amazing. I mean, come on. I was telling somebody the other day, I'm like scrolling through Instagram and you know, this picture of somebody had shared like a box of donuts. They had bought, you know, it was one of my runner friends. And each doughnut had like a pie junk on top of it, you know, Oreos and, you know, Butterfingers or all this like candy and food and cookies and stuff on top of the donuts. And I was just like, really, do we really need to put like cookies and candy on top of the donuts? But apparently we do, but for a minute there, I was like, this is amazing. Like I needed to find these donuts and get them. And then I was like, nah, I don't need that stuff anymore. But anyway, so eat real food, like that's number one, just go back to eating, like the food that our answer says, ancestors have been eating, you know, that's, that's probably the easiest thing you can do. Number two. Is, we got to learn how to stop eating all the time. There's this kind of idea that in order to keep your metabolism going, you should eat like six meals a day. You know? So I don't think this is true. And I definitely don't think this is true for everybody spacing out your meals and eating less frequently has so many benefits, you know? So we call this intermittent fasting and intermittent fasting is basically just listen, just don't eat all the time. It's not something where you're going for, you know five days without food or something like that. No, it's like you fast every day. Anyway, you're fasting from the time you go to bed to the time you wake up in the morning, unless you're one of these people that gets up in the middle of the night to eat like sleepy. I knew somebody that did that. She would wake up with like cookies in her mouth. Like, Bertrand Newson: Oreos again, Butterfingers where he was talking about the Patrick McGilvray: So you're starting to think about it and now you're obsessing about it, but yeah, so like spacing out your meals instead, like, you know, just don't, you don't need to snack in between meals. You know, snacking is one of those things that, you know, again I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I'm just laying it out here, you know? But the food industry has been like, listen, we got this new category of food. This is like back in the fifties. They're like, we got this new category of food called snacks because the three meals are just not enough. Let's sell more food to these people. Like, so here's, we got the snack thing. And then somebody, that board was like, Jim, that is a fantastic idea. Let's just keep going with, that does make as many of these snacks as you can. And so we were just a nation of snackers. So just like stop snacking, like cut that out, eat your three meals a day. We don't need a snack in the morning and an after lunch snack and we don't need to eat dessert and stuff like that. And again, It's like when you were eating all the time and you're just constantly raising your insulin levels, you know, when you're eating all the time, you're just constantly raising your blood sugar. And you're just constantly in that, in that fat storage mode. And we want to get out of the fat storage mode. And my whole, my whole jam is like burn the fat let's, let's be fat burners. You know, let's learn how to do that more efficiently. Fat burning is, is the way to go. You lose weight and it's how it's a great source of fuel for running. You know, it's how you can like get out there and run you know, all day, basically, without having to like stop and refuel all the time. So anyway, number one, real eat real food. Number two, space out your meals. Number three, reduce stress. You know, it's like one of these things that people kind of overlook stress, but stress is a problem. Stress is one of the contributing factors to people gaining weight, because when you, when you're under stress constantly, your body produces that stress hormone cortisol, right? Cortisol is that response that you get is like the fight or flight response. You know, it was great back in the day when we were facing saber tooth tigers, you know, we get this stress response and our body would respond in a way. That's like, you know, we, they, our body was get flooded with. Cortisol. And then our blood sugar would go up and, and we would be ready to like fighter flight, you know, you know, or whatever, you know, fight the saber tooth tiger runaway. I probably would have run away. Definitely, but, but now days we don't have that short term stress. Like we don't have that, like there's no saber tooth tiger, but there's like, oh, I've got all these emails. I gotta answer. Oh, the traffic is so bad. Or, you know, these kids are driving me crazy. And so our stress levels are just like up all the time. And so cortisol is up all the time. And so our blood sugar is up all the time. It's really of a factor like stress is literally making us fat. And so we got to like, just reduce stress. One of the best ways we can reduce stress is what go for a run. I mean, it's like one of the easiest things we can do. You don't have to like sit in a bathtub with candles and meditate and all this other stuff. I mean, you can, if you enjoy that kind of stuff, but like go, go for a run, do some exercise. Some stress is good for us. Short term stress, like, you know, going to the gym, lifting weights, you know, that puts a lot of stress on your body, but it's like, it's intense and it's short. And then you do get that glucose response. Your blood sugar does go up, but then it goes down again. That's good. Like that kind of stress is good when you go for a and you go do like a sprint workout, you know? So you go out there and you run hard, you do like 32nd sprints or something like that. Maybe for 20 minutes, boom, you're done with that workout. And then your stress levels come back down. The cortisol, cortisol comes back down, blood sugars, come back down. And so that's good. Those are good responses. Those elicit adaptation. Right? So we, we adapt to those kinds of stresses. But when your body is constantly stressed, it'd be like, if you were to do like sprints every single day, like that would suck. Like you would just, you would just like burn yourself out. So same kind of thing we're doing with our, with our health, which just in general with this general stress that we're always under. Okay. The next thing, the fourth thing the, you just got to the habit that you just got to get into is strength training. Like I just, I'm such a fan of this. I actually, I started getting into this early last year and I was like, I'd always been lifting weights and stuff, but I never really did it right. And I was like, I'm going to do this. Right. So I just became a personal trainer. I like did all the courses got certified because I wanted to know everything I could about it. And I've just realized that it's so important, especially for runners, you know, runners are notoriously bad at strength training. They're like, well, I'll do it in the off season. And listen, you know, your, your body needs, you need to maintain your muscle during your training season more so than the off season. Kevin Chang: I guess if you have tips for, for beginner, runners or runners, just getting into strenght training. what are you see as like some of the pitfalls that they make or mistakes that they make and what are some like early tips that you would give to runners? Patrick McGilvray: So early tips, I would say, you gotta do, you gotta do some strength training, like twice a week. If you want to build muscle, once a week is enough to maintain muscle. And a full body workout twice a week is sufficient as a starting place. You know, and obviously you want to do you got to start out with, with lighter weights and you got to make sure you're using good form and like learn the form before you and get a little bit stronger before you start hitting the heavier weights. This is a problem that people have in general, but runners in particular, like we, we get out there and start running. Like, let's say you're a new runner and they start running or they start lifting weights and they start to feel pretty good. And they're like, oh, I'm, I'm good. I'm just going to like run 10 miles a day, every day. And, and then they ended up with like stress fractures and things like that. Same thing with lifting weights. It's like, if you do too much too soon, you risk injury. So I always tell people to like, you know, start slow and then as you build strength cause your muscles can, can adapt, but then it's the connective tissues and stuff that have a harder time getting strong. So people ended up like, you know, tearing tendons and things like that. If they're not careful with that. But strength training is one of those things that like the, the more you do it, the, if you can build some muscle, you know carrying around muscle helps to raise your metabolism, you know, because it takes more energy for your body to, to have muscle than it does to have fat on your body. So you're actually burning more calories just by carrying around more, more muscle. And in particular you're burning more fat. So it's one of those things that's often overlooked, but is so important. And I would say it's like more important than, than running for weight loss. I would say that the two things would be to get the junk out of your diet, like fix your diet and then do strength training, if you do those two things, I would say I, and I work with people who are not runners and we work on those two things and they have tons of success. And then other people that are runners that also do the strength training and, and fix up their diet. So it's not like running as bad or anything like that, but I'm just saying like, you know, more importantly is probably the strength training when it comes to improving your health overall and losing weight for sure. Kevin Chang: I mean, I, I think that those are really important tips for our audience to just, you know, just double down on which is you know, we always tell our audience, it is better to lift heavier, right? So it's better to do compound movements is better to lift heavier. You're in and out of the gym, you're going to build more muscle. But I think what you double-clicked on is it is important to do it slow because your body, it takes a while for your body to adapt and you don't want to risk the injury. And especially as you mentioned, the tendons. Those do take a little bit longer. And, you know, Yeah. exactly. You know, you don't want to risk an injury. You do want to go slow. You do probably want to you know, have a plan to be able to lift the weight over a number of different weeks. And especially as we are starting to get back in the gym, those of us that were in the gym pretty regularly before the pandemic, you know, trying to get back to your old weights that you used to lift a while ago. Take it slow, take it slow. Getting there. Patrick McGilvray: Yeah. And I'm a big fan of the, of the heavier weights. One set to failure is, is enough. If you do it the right way, you know, I'm somewhere between like 60 to 90 seconds of, of time under tension per set. And that's, that's all you need to do. And that's going to be sufficient, you know. I've been doing this for the better part of this year, you know, drop my body fat percent. I think I went from like 15.1 to 12.9% body fat and gain 10 pounds of muscle over the last six months. And I mean, I'm not like Arnold Schwarzenegger or anything like that, but for again, like an average guy like me, I'm like, Hey, this is pretty good. And, and I feel good about this. You know, I've been lifting weights for years and years and I've never seen these kinds of results. I just wasn't doing it the right way. And then the last of my five little tips here for, for, for runners, if you want to lose weight is, and this is probably the most important one. And I should've said at first, but I'm saying it lasts because it's important is you gotta be able to manage your mind. Like this is like the key to everything. You know, mindset is everything, you know, if you wanna you wanna like lose a bunch of weight and you have a crappy mindset and you have an attitude. Oh, this never works for me. It's too hard. I can never do this. I'm just going to quit if it doesn't work by this date, like w whatever it is, like, you're not gonna, you're not in it. Like you're not committed. You're not, you're not going to get there. Your mindset has got to be like, you've got to be committed. You've got to be all in. One of the things I talk with people about. Because I'm a weight loss coach. And because we're focused on, on losing weight, like this is sort of the, the main focus, I always back it up a little bit and tell people, listen, here's, here's what we're really trying to do. What we're really trying to do is get you as healthy as possible. In that process of becoming the healthiest version of you, you will lose the weight. That's not like a side effect. It's a nice side effect of being super healthy, but it all starts with this mindset because if you're under the impression that you're going to lose 40 pounds in 30 days or something like that, you know it's just not going to happen. You know? And or if you're under the impression that, you know, every day, the scale is going to go down a little bit like that is not going to happen. I promise you it's an up and down process. And if you, if you, if you're not on board with. Then it's going to be tough for you. I encourage people to weigh themselves every day. I encourage people to like get used to that scale, going up and going down, going up and going down. It's just a constant process. And, and they get used to it and they, and they lose the drama around the scale, you know, cause it's not just about the weight on the scale. It's about how are you feeling. How are you sleeping? How are your clothes fitting? You, you know, how do you feel about yourself? How has your energy, how has your running how's your hunger levels? And when all these things fall into line, like people are just so much happier regardless of what that number on the scale is. And that's kind of the beautiful thing about it. But again, this is all the mindset piece, you know. And, and runners are so awesome. This is one of the reasons I love working with runners because they're so awful. They have amazing attitudes. Runners are like determined. They're driven. They're D they're disciplined people, right? They are so good about sticking to their marathon training plan. They will get up on a Saturday morning in the winter, in the snow, in the rain and whatever they will do that workout no matter what, but then I'm like, okay, that's awesome. Did you stick to your meal plan this week? Oh, no, it's too hard. I tell them, I'm like, you got to take that attitude about your training and just copy and paste that over here to like your food. You know what I mean? Cause it's the same thing. It's the same exact thing. So those are the five like habits that I think we really need to focus on. Kevin Chang: If you like our podcast and sign up for our newsletter, where we give you weekly tips on how to run your best race and have fun in the process, just go to RaceMob. com and sign up today. Have you learned any tricks to help people with that mindset? Because I, I would say, you know, we probably have the same things sometimes with our athletes, you know, we do the cut, the crap challenge, or we do, you know, something. And for 14 days, for 21 days, people are super motivated. They're helping each other out, but, you know. But to keep that mindset or keep that, that lifestyle going past those 14 days or to continue that ongoing, I think that is sometimes a struggle to, to make that mindset, create that mindset or, you know yeah. So I didn't know if you had any tips or any thoughts from that perspective. Patrick McGilvray: Yeah. I mean, that's a great question and the answer is not simple, so it's not like, I mean, I wish I had a couple of like quick little tips I could give you. That would be like, oh yeah, this is. But here's the thing we're all different and we all have different issues going on. You really have to learn how your mind works and when you do, then you can start to change things like self-awareness is so important. Okay, here's a tip, I'll give you, this is, this is something that people can do, is something that I call the daily thought download, which is just taking a piece of paper, take a notebook, and just write down all the junk that you're thinking about in your head. Write all that stuff down, because this is the stuff that you're telling yourself. This is the stuff that you're ruminating over. This is the stuff that you're thinking of. These are the things that you believe about yourself. And we think about these things and we say them to ourselves all day long, every single day, but we're not really consciously aware of it. Sometimes we are, but most of the time we're not, but when you start to write it down, you start to make yourself, you start to bring that from your subconscious into your consciousness and you start to become aware of the crap that you're telling yourself all day long. We have something like 60,000 thoughts a day, and I got to tell you probably 90% of them are negative, you know? And so we need to get that stuff out and like, look at it and say like, okay, here, here's the stuff I'm thinking about. What of this is serving me and what of this is keeping me like stuck and keeping me from reaching my goals. And it's pretty obvious once you start to like break it down that way. So that would be something I could, I would recommend, but really it's just like awareness, just awareness of what you're thinking, awareness of what your doing. So there's, there's like three pieces to this it's thoughts, feelings, and actions. You know, your thoughts are just, you know, the sentences in your mind. They're just the things you tell yourself about what's going on around you. But your, your emotions are always created by your thoughts. So any, anytime you feel an emotion like frustration or stress or anxiety or sadness or fear or anger or any, any emotion that you experience desire is another good emotion. This is the ones the related to food. You know, we have this over desire for food. Sometimes these are all just driven by thoughts. You, you don't feel an emotion without a thought that precedes it. So it's, it's like putting these pieces together. I'm, I'm having a thought, it's creating this emotion. And then our emotions drive our actions, thought feeling action. And this is how habits gets formed. You know, this is how like this is how you get the results that you want and the results that you don't want. Thoughts, feelings, and actions. And when you start to put these things together it's really stinking powerful because you can get anything you want in your life. You can change anything about yourself. You can change the way your brain works. You can change these thought patterns that you think you're stuck in. People that think that, oh, I could never lose the weight, or I could never run a marathon. And then they start really looking into this stuff and they're like, I'm going to lose a hundred pounds. I'm going to run an ultra marathon, whatever it is then. And they, they, they understand how they can do it. You know, it becomes something that's possible for them. Kevin Chang: I love that. I mean, I think, you know, it is, so sometimes that mindset thing is so personal. You know, a, everybody. Reacts differently. And so that self-awareness piece, if you understand how your own mind works, what are the negative thoughts that may be sabotaging yourself? What actually, how you can actually overcome that, whether that be, you know, goal setting, whether that be joining a community such as yours, so that there's accountability and that you're letting other people know, Hey, this is my goal, this is my plan for this week. Hold me accountable to that. Or whether that be, you know, Hey, I know that I always sabotage myself by doing this by having these negative toss. And the next time I have that negative thoughts, this is how I'm going to overcome it. So actually putting that plan in place so that you can overcome those negative thoughts, that the self-doubt and all those things, I think that's, that's really that's really perceptive. That's really important for you to be able to articulate that as a coach who who's worked with so many different people, that there are different personalities, and if you can become self-aware yourself, you may be able to overcome some of these obstacles. So that's great. Bertrand Newson: Patrick, it would be great because you've given us some very clear, direct tips on what not to consume. Okay. Flour, sugar being right there at the top of the list. What can people look to on that food list that are foods that help drive performance that help with weight management and is in their best inter interest in the bigger picture things. Patrick McGilvray: I'm a fan of a lower carbohydrate approach as, as you could probably tell. Right. And so one of the things that I do with my clients is I always encourage them to kind of. Pick the foods that they like now, I give them some suggestions and I'm going to, I'm going to get to that in just a second, but I just want you to know that there's not like one ideal human diet. There's not one thing that works for everybody. You know, I read all these books. I mean, I've read like all these books, these diet books and stuff like that. And usually at the end of the book, they give you like a meal plan. It's like eat this day, one, eat this day two. And I'm like, I'm not eating any of that stuff. I don't like that food. And so like to, and I get it, the authors are awesome. They're doing, trying to do a good job of like making it, give people ideas and stuff like that. But it's really hard to like tell somebody else, like, here's what you should eat, you know? So that's one of the things that I do with my clients, we, we work on this together. We kind of figure out like, what do you like, what do you not like, you know, what, what what's your lifestyle like was work like, like, and then we, we try to like you know, come up with something that, that works for them. Now from, from my perspective. So what do I do? Like I'm more, I'm, I'm leaning more in the carnivore range these days, because I've, I've, I've done the like kind of low carb thing where I was eating still a lot of, you know, vegetables and stuff like that. And I just feel better when. Doing less of that. So I've been kind of experimenting a couple of times this year now. I, so I trained from marathon you know, from like January to April and I, and I did this sort of carnivore thing for about 40 days in there and ran a marathon without any calories and without any carbs, like I trained for a marathon with no carbs and then ran the thing with no calories. I did that last year. I ran a marathon with no calories and I ran a 50 K without any fuel or. Just to see like, Hey, is this possible? Can you even do this? And yeah, it's totally possible. And, but this marathon I did was, I felt so amazing. And I was like, dang, this there's something to this. Like, I'm going to keep going. So I I've been doing this for awhile now. And so for me, you know, I eat a lot of eggs, you know, I'll eat like bacon, sausage chicken. I eat a lot of steaks. You know, steaks are like kind of a staple for me. You know, I got a freezer full of steaks right now. Rib-eyes and such. And it's pretty awesome, it's pretty delicious. There's no like sense of deprivation on, on this sort of like diet or this way of eating and, and, and I'm getting all the nutrition that I need. So eggs are one of the most nutrient dense foods on the planet. Like you're going to get just about everything you need from eggs. A couple of the other things that are like super high in nutrition and, and, and very energy dense would be liver, which I do not like, but if you like it, then go for it. And it's super nutrient dense sardines are another thing that are super nutrient dense. So like, those are like the top three sort of like liver eggs sardines but for me, I don't like star sardines either. So I do a lot of steak and eggs and things like that. And, and, and it's, it's simple, you know, and it's, and it's sustainable and, and it's easy to do. And then I find that like, running is not a problem, you know, I'm feel by fat, I'm fueled by my own body fat and by a lot of the fat that I'm eating and so far I'm not having any issues at all. My health is amazing. I feel great. And and it's working for running to. Kevin Chang: Can you talk to us a little bit about getting into that fat adapted state? You know, I think for the, For most runners, it's, it's hard to go from our diet today to a strict carnival diets tomorrow. Right. And I think you, you wouldn't feel that great. Diets, and it probably takes a bit of ramp up and it's a bit of a process and that sort of thing. So can you talk to us a little bit about, about that and how that works for some of the athletes? Patrick McGilvray: Yeah. So, and I don't recommend like everybody do the carnivore thing. Like I'm, I work with people who are vegan and vegetarian and everywhere in between, you know, like, so it's all good. Like, whatever you you want to do is gonna, is going to be fine as long as we just keep those problematic carbohydrates, like out of the picture. But yeah, so getting fat adapted is one of those things that's challenging and. It's it's pretty terrible because it's like, you, you, you get off of it. If you, if you're eating a high carb diet, which I was, and a lot of people are when you stop eating that stuff, even if you just cut it down to like, you know, 50 grams of carbs a day or something like that, which is still, you know, that's, that's pretty low. But even at that, like running is going to be a challenge. And so cause you, you don't have the fuel that you're used to. So you're, you're gonna, you're going to run out of muscle glycogen and you're gonna, you're gonna not have really the fuel that you need for running. There's usually a period of about three weeks. It can be anywhere from like two to six weeks, but it's usually about three weeks, about 21 days where running just feels terrible. And it just feels like you have no energy because you don't, your, your body is trying to use you know, free fatty acids and triglycerides, and like, you know, trying to take this and you're producing some ketones and things like that as well. So it's trying to use these alternative sources of fuel that it's not used to using. And, but it does get more efficient with that stuff. And as you, the more you do it and the more you keep with it, and the more you keep running through it, you will become more efficient at burning fat. And again, it just takes about three weeks. You got to keep running through that process. It just feels like you have no energy. So it's kind of like, you know that's a lot of people just quit. They're like, screw this. This is too hard, you know? And that's one of the big things I do with my clients is I'm like, this is how we're going to do it. And I walk them through it. Step-by-step I tell them everything they're going to need to do in the process and then kind of hold up, hold their hand and keep them like, keep them going through the process because it is, it is a bit of a challenge to get that. Kevin Chang: Yeah. Yeah I know I've done it a couple of times going really low carb pecan even to the keto side. And there's the keto flu that some people may experience, which is actually, you know, it kind of feels like the flu kind of two or three weeks in,o it. If you do go super low carb. But I mean, I, I love that that's something that you hand-hold people through help them coach through, help, help them understand, you know, what to be aware of that these things are normal and, and it is a bit of a struggle that's for sure. Especially if you're, if you're really high on carbs today. Usually it's, it makes sense to, you know, really step down the cars, cut out the sugars, cut out though, the white breads and the flowers and those sorts of things fairly early and then. And then, you know, kind of ease into that process. I was going to ask you a little bit, you know, now that you are a fat adapted, it sounds like you're doing these marathons, these ultra runs without too much fueling I've heard, you know, kind of mixed things, sometimes fat adapted athletes will, we'll still take gels. We'll still, you know, have something for race day. Have you seen any fueling strategies work for any of your runners that are, I guess, more on the fat adapted side or, or what, how do you suggest to those that are trying to do these long runs? Are you, are you seeing that they're already having success you know, being in that fat adaptive state or, or are you kind of suggesting other, other sources of fuel for them? Patrick McGilvray: Yeah. So it kind of depends on the person, but for the most part, when you get to this place and you'll just know when you're there, because it feels amazing, and you're like, I just ran 15 miles and I feel amazing. I didn't need any fuel at all. Like, this is crazy. When you get to that place, it just, it feels so good. Like you don't really need to do the carbs and stuff like that. You don't need the fuel necessarily. There's a few products out there though that are made for like low carb runners. Like a S fuels is, is a brand that has a couple of products that. Around with. And it's mostly the fuel sources, mostly like MCT oil some amino acids, some, some electrolytes. So it's, it's mostly like fat is what they're using for fuel, you know? So the, the fuel that we want to use, we don't want it to, if we were to do like gels, like if you're fat adapted and you just go and do a bunch of gels, like that's going to shut down the fat burning process while you're processing the sugar. So that can really have an impact on your endurance. Okay. So there's really specific situations where you might want to do that. If you're, let's say you wanted to smash a 10 K or something like that, like that, that would be a different kind of situation. But if you're out there doing an ultra and you really want to like, make sure that fat burning, like you're in high fat burning. Then I would say, stay away from all the sugars. Cause that's just gonna like tank your endurance. But yeah, so as fuels is one, you can, that SuperStarch stuff that they have as, as another product. So there's a couple of brands out there that are like catering to the low carb athletes and, and, and they have fuel options for, for us, but a lot of people like they, they just find that they just feel great with, with maybe just electrolytes while they're out there doing that stuff. And that's what I recommend for, for most people. But again, like if, if you're at a different level and you're trying to, you know, maybe PR or something like that, then we would want to like take a different approach with. Kevin Chang: That makes sense. And I know that though, we are starting to see some of these newer products in the market. We even had Brian Frank from Hammer Nutrition on, and he, he really does espouse that you should be having a low carb diet. You should be using your fats and, and burning fats and not to take some of the gels early on, especially in a run, but to really, you know, understand. How your body uses those skills because yeah, you do want the ketones. You do want your body to be able to use the fat throughout that run, especially if you're going longer distance and for ultra runs and whatnot. One thing I wanted to talk about or touch on something that you had mentioned earlier on about Jason Fong, about intermittent fasting. Can you talk to us a little bit about, I guess, facet you facet, state running? Is that something I've, I've done some of that I've experimented with some of that in the past. Talk to us a little bit about that, and then let's dive a little bit deeper and say intermittent fasting as well. Patrick McGilvray: Yeah. So I love the fastest day running and a lot of runners are doing this already. Like I talked to so many people that are like, oh yeah, I can't eat before I run. Anyway, you know? And so then they'll eat dinner the night before, and then in the morning, they'll do their long run and they won't eat anything before. I maybe just have a cup of coffee or something like that. And so a lot of people are already kind of doing this. The only difference would be like those people would then probably feel like during their, their, their. Whereas, you know, what I recommend is like, if especially if you want to become fat adapted and you want to really take advantage of that fat burning is to just not do anything during that run. So no more calories really coming in. So there's a lot of benefits to this. One of them is that in that fasted state and, and this goes for strength, training workouts, too or running workouts, you produce a little more adrenaline. So you actually, you can actually go a little bit harder and you can actually push a little bit more. You produce more growth hormone during fasting during the fasting periods. So you can actually recover a little bit faster. So your muscle, your muscle repairs will be a little bit faster. And that recovery period, one of the things one of the benefits people talk about from a fat-adapted running state is how easy it is to recover and how quickly they recover from these longer runs, especially like marathons and ultra marathons. People are like, I just got up the next day and everything was fine. Like, I didn't have trouble walking down the stairs, like I used to and all this stuff. And I'm like, That's one of the benefits of, of doing this. And also you produce more testosterone when you're in that when you work out in that fasted state and the women don't need to worry, they're not going to grow big bushy beards or anything like that. We all need, you know, some testosterone for, for muscle building and things like that. So, and it just, it helps with your performance. So there's, there's those benefits of, of the fat fasted state. And you're just like you're in that higher fat burning mode while you're doing that. So you're fat, you're burning fat more efficiently. Kevin Chang: Have you found any of your athletes take up intermittent fasting or working for certain athletes more than others, or, you know, any pitfalls, I guess, with recommending intermittent fasting with some of your athletes. Patrick McGilvray: So I really haven't seen too many pitfalls, I think. It depends on what your goals are. If you're trying to lose weight, then intermittent fasting is a really great way to do that. Because again, we're talking about, you know, every time you eat insulin is going up. And so you're just constantly in, in this fast storage mode as you're, if you're eating all the time. So intermittent fasting is a great way to get your body into fat burning mode. I think it's a great way, especially when you get started with a low carb running and with that adaptation. As you progress, and maybe you get closer to your goal weight, or maybe you're trying to, to build muscle, you know, maybe your, your, your goals are a little bit different or trying to get a lot stronger. You know, intermittent fasting may be a little detrimental just because you need more calories throughout the day to support your, your workouts and muscle repair and throughout the day and things like that. So it kind of depends. I mean, I would never say it's like the right thing for everybody. But it's not, definitely not the wrong thing for everybody. You know, I think it has its benefits for a lot of people. And especially if you're trying to lose weight, I think it's a good way to go. The other thing is like, naturally when you stop eating all the processed food and all the sugar and stuff like that, you're just not as hungry all the time. And you're just going to find that, like, you're just like, I just don't feel like eating breakfast. Like that's one of the most common things people do is they just skip breakfast and eat like two meals a day, you know, like a big lunch and a big dinner and that's it. And that's all they really need. They're not hungry at these other times. It's not like they're trying to force themselves not to eat. They're just not hungry. That's kind of my experience. I, you know, twice a day and I don't really snack in between maybe a little bit here and there. But for the most part, like I just, I'm not hungry. I don't need food all the time anymore. Like I used to it's, which is awesome. It's like very, it's a very freeing. Bertrand Newson: Coach Patrick, do you supplement your protein intake or just predominantly animal protein? Patrick McGilvray: Yeah. So that's a good question. So I do a little bit just so I do a little creatine and like after my strength workouts, I do a little creatine and a little protein, and I just read this post. You guys know Ben Greenfield, you know, he's, he's nuts. He's like, Kevin Chang: Yeah. Patrick McGilvray: anyway, so he had this post and he was talking about like a pre-workout sort of supplement mixture that you can do. And I'm like, well, that sounds really close to what I do. So a lot of times before I work out, I'll do a little bit of protein. So maybe a scoop of protein powder, some creatine, collagen and some exogenous ketones. And this is like rocket fuel, you know? And then I'll do like a little MCT oil in my coffee. This little combination right here is like rocket fuel and really supports muscle growth. You're, you're supporting fat burning. You're definitely not shutting down fat burning with this kind of a deal. And creatine is great, especially for, for runners and, and strength training as well. But creatine can help with, with endurance as well. It's kind of a backwards way of getting there, but, you know, because you can, it'll help you to work out a little bit harder and actually build a little bit more muscle a little bit faster. You can, it'll actually help improve your endurance in the long run as well. So, Bertrand Newson: Does the type of protein powder I E whey or soy P protein matters as well when you're hitting pre post workout? Patrick McGilvray: My opinion is whey protein is going to be the best. I mean, it's really the most it has all the amino acids and it's bioavailable. It's like the most bioavailable type of protein supplement. But you know, if you're one of these people, you're like a vegetarian or vegan or something like that, and you want to do pea protein or you want to do soy totally fine. It's not quite as, as it doesn't have all the amino acids but it's, it's pretty close. And I think if you combine, I don't know, there's, there's some brands out there that actually combine a couple of different plant proteins and then they get up complete amino acid profile when they do that. Kevin Chang: There's always some somethings that you got to watch out for, especially with, with some of the vegan protein powders. I know that P protein is known to have some trace contaminants of, of lead. I think, you know, soy, especially if you're not getting the right type of soy can have actually amounts of like estrogen and that sort of thing, or coming like negatively impact your body. So there are certain brands I think, that are recommended and certain brands that, you know, you got to worry about or, or stay a little bit away from. If you are doing whey protein, usually, you know, looking for grass fed or organic, I think is, is usually the way to go. Especially with as much, you know, negative things that can be found in fats and, and in certain fats these days. So I know that. you had mentioned, you know, oil being one of those things, vegetable oils in particular, being one of those things to kind of steer yourself away from in your diet. Can you talk a little bit about why that is? I know that there's a number of reasons why you would probably want to steer yourself away from, you know, some of the common vegetable oil, sunflower oil, some of the stuff that's very commonly available. Patrick McGi: It's just garbage. Bertrand Newson: Yeah. Patrick McGilvray: So, and I say that sort of joking, but sort of not like vegetable oil was originally like created as a, as a lubricant for like machinery, you know? And they were like, Hey, you know what? Let's feed this to humans. I bet they would eat it, you know? And it's kind of a true story. So anyway, if you understand the process and I'm not, I can't like go through it all white in my head, but like the process of taking, it's not even vegetable, it's not like, like they're squeezing, you know, beans and stuff and like, you know carrots and they're getting this oil. That's what our, our concept is. But no, it's, it's more like industrial seed oils is what I'm talking about. So cotton seed rapeseed, which is also known as what does that known is that canola oil? There's all these like industrial seed oils. The amount of energy that they have to, to put this, these seeds through, like in order to extract the oil from them. And then they have to like detoxify them and they have to like keep them to certain high temperatures to like, or else they become rancid. You know, it's like, they're not food, you know what I mean? It's not something you would want. If you saw the process of how they make these oils, you'd be just like grossed out by it. So cool. You go YouTube it, check it out. It's crazy. But they're just toxic. They're, they're very toxic for us at any level. And and they're just like, there's really no reason for us to be eating this stuff anymore. So better fats would be animal fats, you know, the fat that comes on your ribeye steak eat that, you know butter is a great source of fat stuff like avocados. Avocado oil, all of an olive oil. These are great sources of fat coconut oil. But we just got to stay away from, you know, the canola oil and peanut oil and all those other, like the ones that just say like vegetable oil or whatever. Kevin Chang: Yeah. And I think a lot of them are full of, you know oxidizing free radicals, I, I would say. And and they can stay in your fat for long, long periods of time, you know, five years, 10 years even longer. So it is definitely something, one of those things too, to watch out for and look out for in your foods. Cause they sneak it in everywhere too. Talk to us a little bit about your, your online group. So you have a group, you do group training. I know that it meets weekly. You provide support. So, talk to us a little bit about, you know, the group and some of the successes, maybe some of your athletes, if you want to highlight anything. Patrick McGilvray: So I've got a coaching groups. I do one-on-one coaching. Right. And, and then in addition to that, I have a group program. Some people just want a little, a little bit of accountability. They don't really need that one-on-one type of treatment. And so, so I've got this group program and it's just the running lean coaching group. And what we do is we meet every week and over zoom and we do a big group zoom and, you know, it might have 10 to 20 people on the call at a time or whatever. And each month we have a different topic. So this past month we were talking all about those thought-feeling-action patterns and how they play out for us and how we need to, to kind of be aware of these things and change them. And like we worked on changing habits and things like that. This next month, September we're working we're, we're, we're doing the four weeks to fat adapted running is our topic of the month. So we're going to like, step-by-step walk you through getting fat adapted and get you through the tough parts and, you know. We're all gonna do it together, you know, so we'll all be in it together. But it's a really fun group and I have online training programs as well. And so when you join the group, you get access to these online training programs. And then although all the stuff that I do, all the live like trainings that I do, I, I have this private podcast feed that I created that this is a replay of all these things, because I know runners were like, oh yeah, we want to put our ear buds in and just go for a run and listen to this stuff. So I made that like private podcast available for my, for my members as well. And they love that because, you know, Tuesday nights is when we meet with the group and not everybody can like meet every time. And so they, they love being able to, to catch up on the, on the replays and stuff. Highlight a couple of runners. So yeah, I've got a couple of clients that I've worked with who have had some, some great success and. I'm actually, I'm interviewing one of these women. Her name is Kelly and I'm interviewing her this weekend in my Facebook group. So this is just a public Facebook group. It's just the running lean community on Facebook. And then but she and I had been working together for a few months now and she's she's got a cool story and I'm excited for, for, for her to share her story. But I'll just give you a couple of highlights here. So number one, she wanted to lose like 10 or 15 pounds. Okay. She ended up losing like 20 pounds. She did this, this low carb thing as a vegetarian. And she was like, what am I going to eat? This is like, do I have to eat a bunch of meat and stuff like that? And I was like, no, no, let's figure it out. And so we figured it out and she, you know, she tried some things that didn't work and, you know, she was trying to get enough protein and these things, and we worked through all these like challenges, you know, cause it's a little bit challenging when you're trying to do something like that as. So and she's an ultra runner and she did a, a 50 K and then and she had a great experience doing that, but then she just did, like two weeks ago, she did a Ragnar relay as an ultra group. So it was like, I think typically it's like eight, six people. Yeah. Or 12 or six. Right. So she did it with six women as an ultra team. And they, they came in first place for, for ultra women. Yeah. And I was like, well, damn, that's pretty awesome. You know, so, but she just felt so good. And she was, she was cracking me up because she's like, Patrick, you and believe it, like, I didn't need anything. I didn't need to go out there and eat a bunch of food. I didn't to carb up or anything like that. I mean, I ate when I was hungry and stuff like that, but I didn't need all this stuff. She goes, I was looking at these other people that had so much food. I was like, how many weeks do you think we're going to be out here running? And she just was like, this is like a, such a different way to go. And she had such a great experience and just really just, you know, committed to the process and had some hard times had some struggles. She's going to talk about that. And I'll probably end up like sharing her story on the podcast here pretty soon because it's, it's a good story. So yeah, I'm excited about that. Kevin Chang: That's incredible. Yeah. And you know, sometimes you need accountability. Sometimes you need the coaching, but sometimes you need an actual plan and somebody who's been there and done that before, who's actually done the research, who's actually worked with other clients. And So, you know, we're so thankful to be able to highlight you. Hopefully some of our audience will take you up on that. Offer your, find your Facebook group. Tell us, tell our audience where they can find you, where they can be coached by Patrick himself, where they can, you know, either join your, your coaching group or be coached. One-on-one tell our audience. Patrick McGilvray: Yeah. So the, the best place to start is just listen to the podcast. Just go find running lean. On wherever you get your podcasts. And then from there, you know, you and I talk about the different places where you can find me running lean coaching.com is my website. And then the running lean Facebook group is running lean community on Facebook. You can find us there. And I do a little bit of training every week and there too, like a little live every Sunday afternoon in and around different topics and stuff like that. And that's a lot of fun in the Facebook group too. So, and that's, that's free and open to everybody. So it's a big group we've got about, you know, 8500 people in that group now. So that's growing. Yeah. It's and it's fun. It's a lot of positive people. It's a, it's a supportive group and it's a group that's like encouraging each other and it's like motivating each other. And you know, I, I love that. It makes me feel good, you know, that, that everybody, that we're all getting on board with this kind of stuff, and we're all, we all want to support each other to become healthier human beings. You know, we all want to support each other's goals. You know, we're not there to like, you know, you know, harp on other people or, or, or give them a hard time or anything like that. No, it's like, Hey, you go, man. Just like do your thing, you know? And we're all trying to do something here. We're all trying to do something hard. We all have challenges that we're trying to face. And one of my big things is like, for me, I'm always trying to become more. I'm always trying to become the best version of myself. And when I talk about becoming more, it's like becoming more of my, my best self, but it's always a moving target. Like there's no destination and I'm okay with that. I'm okay with the fact that like, I'm going to continue. To grow and evolve and to become stronger and to become healthier and to always be learning more, you know, I was like this like vegan dude for a long time. And then I learned that maybe this wasn't the right thing for me and I, and I was willing to be like, all right, I'm going to try something else and, and grow from there. You know? And so that's when I started eating meat again, you know, I was like, okay, I'm going to try this kind of a thing. So I'm always growing and evolving and trying to become more. And that's what I want for, for you. And that's what I want for the people that, that kind of are listening to my message. I want them to become the best version of themselves. Then I want them to understand that it's an ongoing process that we're not, we're not getting to some destination and then we can quit. It's like, it's always going to, we're always going to be growing and evolving and that's cool. It's good. It's good. Kevin Chang: Growing and evolving. Bertrand Newson: Great insight. Kevin Chang: And you know, a community that can help you and people that have been there and been there before and can help guide you along the way, which is incredible. I'm so thankful to have you on the. Thankful to be able to have this conversation and to chat with you. Hopefully this is just the beginning of a, a good friendship of a good partnership and, and you know, anything that we can do to support your community. Please let us know and, you know, happy to help spread your message because it is such a, one of positivity one of support. So thank you again for being on this podcast with Patrick McGilvray: Thanks guys. It's been super fun and I appreciate Kevin Chang: Yeah, absolutely. Bertrand News: Sincere pleasure. Great Stuff. Kevin Chang: Well, I hope you enjoyed this episode of the RaceMob podcast. Check out all of the show notes or find a running buddy online at RaceMob dot com. Please subscribe to us on apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts and leave us a review until next time. Keep on.